Anti grappling

[drkpassenger]

Hello
I was wondering if anyone had any antigrappling defenses. I think that the best defense is the same as any other kind of fighter(only one kind, the human kind):shut them down hard and fast. But there is always the "what if" In my opinion the best techiniques for these kind of scenarios are the sprawl w/ a headlock and a Filipino technique called Baliog Pomali. I had the privelige of learning the latter technique from a friend of mine who is filipino. Let me tell you, it is quick and potentially lethal and it hurts like heck. It is on Youtube if you want to see it, but anyway. I just think that the best defense no matter what kind of "fighter" you are facing will always be a hard, nontelegraphic, powerful punch. What do you all think?

[Adam]

drkpassenger,

 good post , do u mind posting the clip of the  move you are talking about , thanks 

[Adam]

defense  against  the shoot  : 

1 try to work your counters against his takedown when you are hitting first instead of the usual standing there waiting for him to come in ; drilling this way makes it harder for you

2 learn to chase in vertical plane and most importantly  learn to  check in a way that takes his root  , this would off set his ability  to execute; angle away in the same time

3 I found  eye gouge mix with neck cranks to work very well as u angle off

sorry this is hard to erxplain on the net  easy to show in person ,

but the best way like u say is just to shut them down  . Realistically if a person closes good theres a good chance u will  get in first  unless the distance is really realy far , in that case lol almost any counter  will work with that much time

[drkpassenger]

Here is that movie.

http://www.youtube.com/v/-BeTgtbHepk&hl=en

[frito]

Great videos!

[Kenton]

As a Wing Chun guy, I look for similar shapes and that specific defense in the video looks like a modified Lan Sau.

I personally like two "shoot" defenses:

1. Sprawl - It just works.  You don't always have to sprawl the entire way, but popping the hips back enables me to at least get my hands in there to the eyes or lets me drop some elbows (or palm strikes to the back of the neck/head if the range is a little farther).

2. Kwai Saat - I know of an MMA fighter that got a concussion from a similar move.  He was going for the shoot and his opponent dropped and threw their hip into his head.  The MMA fighter got knocked out.  My good friend was trading acupuncture sessions for his post-concussion syndrome for private BJJ lessons.  The Kwai Saat or Sitting/Squating horse that is taught in WC I think is also very useful...plus it offers that kill or drive-forward mentality that us WC'ers like.

Best,
Kenton

[MIKE B]

i like that counter very simple and effective.  i saw a ufc scrap where the "shooter" was intercepted with a flying knee to the face....worked like a charm k.o.
  im going out on a limb here, but i think grapplers and BJJ dudes are well aware of how exposed they are during a shoot. they probably train to that effect as in dont shoot unless shootee is not expecting it.
  just my two cents
-MIKE B

[Tyler]

My brother was a decent grappler a while back and whoever he talked with agree that they were exposed and were willing to sacrifice taking a few hits on the way in in order to accomplish their objective of gettting to the ground. He also added that most people throw hooks that are easy to slip or duck usually grazing them not doing much damage so it is very rare that someone would land a strike with enough force to K.O. them. Later on my brother "played" with a very good staight puncher with excellent timing and my brother was unable to get close to him. Later on my brother said he was glad that so  few people throw straight punches and that he would have been KO'd had he gone fullout.

[Adam]

tyler,  i remember that straight puncher:) ....but honestly it was not just the straight punches that did it but the timing , get him while he was getting set up ......

  Really most anti grappling counters i've seen is based on waiting seeing then countering , this poses a problem for most fighters because  you dont know what is comming at you , a punch , a kick or a take down?  with many options stimulus to respond to , reaction time is lengthen making the ability to react on time very difficult. Thats the major reason why ppl get taken down - many can demo diff counters against diff take downs sucessfully when they are teaching beacause they know what is coming but when its for real with the element of surprise , most ppl get taken down. Keep in mind most real fights starts from 4 feet or less not unrealsitically from 15 feet away like in a sparring match. Sure is easy to counter anything if starts far enough away but unfortunately  thats not where real situations starts. There's a world of a difference between a sparring partner bouncing around and then going for a tackle fr 7 feet away vs some nut rushing you without warning in a middle of a conversation  from 3 feet away.
    I think in a real situation  , dont worry about the diff attacks coming ( a punch , a kick, a takedown etc)
instead of focusing on the many options , just go in and take out the center before he can do anything. Its like if u were taking a tree down , you would not cut it branch by branch but instead just chop the root!  like wise instead of  countering his diff attacks , just shut his center down first and take his balance asap.   
    like the old saying goes " if he dont move, I dont move, if he wants to move , I've already moved" - sun tze.  If you can do that , doesnt matter what he does and style no longer matters. Problem is this ability  requires alot of awarenss ,non-telegraphic ability,  timing, speed , accuracy and functional amount of power with automatic follow ups - this requires alot of practice, something most are not willing to do. 

   

[drkpassenger]

That is exactly right. Timing is what matters. With good timing, it doesn't matter what style or discipline one practices under. There is only one style, the human style. Two arms, two legs, shut him down.

[Kenton]

Its like if u were taking a tree down , you would not cut it branch by branch but instead just chop the root!  like wise instead of  countering his diff attacks , just shut his center down first and take his balance asap.   
    like the old saying goes " if he dont move, I dont move, if he wants to move , I've already moved" - sun tze.

Wow.  I really like what you wrote.  As a human being, I continually look to my life experiences to solidify concepts.  As an acupuncturist/Oriental medicine practitioner, it is my profession to look at the root cause and treat that (while simultaneously treating a few "branches").  I really like how you applied that concept (albeit indirectly) to the concept of fighting and shutting someone down.

Thanks!   

[Nate]

The best way to shut down a grappler is to lean how to grapple.  If you are fighting someone who wants to fight on the ground, and they do take you down, you better know how to fight on the ground or you will be extremely overwhelmed.

[Steve Smith]

It has been interesting to watch the UFC over the years.  There has been a trend back away from grappling as people have gotten better at stopping the shoot, it has been more dangerous to try it.  How did people get there well as a previous poster said by learning to grapple at least to the degree to be able to stop the take downs, and take a toll standing.  There is no magic bullet in fighting it is an ever evolving thing as technology changes other people in order to compete change strategies and it goes on.

[Adam]

    If  you fail to shut him down  ending up in  grappling , in my opinion, the best  anti grappling  that I have ever seen  is good push hands ( especially when foul tactics are added to it ) ...... sadly it is seldom taught these days. Off course , I dont think it will work out too great unless one spend lots of time studying / observing the delivery system of potential adversary. The biggest mistake I notice is that some guys assume sucess anti grapplling without putting loads of time on it, dissecting it , feeling it etc - this brings up steve good point abt UFC evolution .....   

   Ian if u are out there lol ... would u like to say a few things
 
   

   

[Nate]

Steve I completely agree.  I read interviews with top MMA strikers who hate to grapple, usually to find out they atleast have a purple belt in BJJ.   

[Jeff Meadows]

Well as Adam posted...Good posts by the way Adam. Is that in any real fight you dont have time for countering. A real fight is fast, chaotic, painful and brutal. So ya have to take the offensive. take there centerline , unbalance and make them retreat as you gobble up all there real estate.

All that being said...what is mostly being taught these days in groundfighting is the counter game or sport related BJJ. Both of which have no practicality under a brutal assault. As a side note... I find it very interesting that the first family of grappaling.. The Gracies have there video series that documents there whole BBJ system from beginning to advanced tecniques but as part of that series they have 3 volumes pertaining to street defense. Least there being reponsible but to my mind they have 9 volumes in there series that have no value.

But to finally anser the question straight The only good defense against a shoot is the sprawl or varations on the basic sprawl. Yes u can strike them on occasion but is way to rare of occurence to even bother training with. Because if ya miss you could hurt ur hand or if ya dont get a KO or vital hit. You are on the ground. In a Real fight the absolute last place in the world ya want to be is on the ground.

The absolute best way to get off the ground is using "foul" tactics. Use foul tactics to advance your position to standing once again.

Ill give ya guys two examples. In these example you will use his gut reaction to advance the grappler off of you and to get back to standing.

 They are very easy and makes your assailent have gut reaction that gives you the second or two ya need to advance your position to standing or at the very least a better position on the ground. One is the double eye gouge with thumbs in the eyes fingers anchored behind the ears. His reaction is gonna be to get your thumbs out his eyes before you take a looksie at his brain. Ya use that moment to advance your position with either a sweep or kick off.

Second example would be hair pull or neck crank into bicep hold with either throut or cheek bite depending on the legal situation. Ya start chowing a guy down and he is no longer interested in grappling you. He wants to get the hell away from you. Lol. Of course blood disease are issues. But in reality when some is attacking you, trying to do you harm you have to asume your life is on the line in the here and now. That being said one should use caution with injesting other folks body fluids.

My point is there is alot easier ways to defend yourself than messing around with the sport aspect of grappling. In truth in a real life situation there is no such thing as grappling in a tradition sense. There are brutal assualts in the vertical and horizontal planes and thats about it. To think or train otherwise is unpractical in my opnion.

[Adam]

Hey Jeff , where have u been?  

" make them retreat as you gobble up all their real estate"  ha ha ha ,  that should be a school sign ! 

[Jeff Meadows]

Hey Jeff , where have u been?  

" make them retreat as you gobble up all their real estate"  ha ha ha ,  that should be a school sign ! 

Hello my Brother,

I have been real busy with work and such. Seems like folks just cant live without me at work. No pun intended.

I also have been going about systemizing my system. Is alot harder than it would first seem.
Havin a eye towards the average Joe has it challenges as well. Not everyone is willing to commit to the training as myself and others. But for me to spend two hours a day training is easy but it is easy to do something ya love.

I still intend on making my way out to your neck of the woods. Just have no idea when. I like to vacation in cool cities. I heard your is nice so it is on my list. And while I am there may as well get some training in with a cool cat like yourself:)

Was good to hear from ya as always.

Your's in Fellowship,
 Jeff

[Adam]

I look forward to it Jeff, would be good to share info on things 

[tom d]

Adam - it was nice to see you at Jesse's a few weeks ago. Glad you guys could make it.

I was going to add to this thread that Ed Hart focused quite a bit on "anti-grappling" and had a lot of respect for grapplers. I agree that depending on the specific situation there are many answers for someone shooting on you depending on their speed, their size, and how close they've gotten before you react. There's no magic and a guy who is good and shoots suddenly may very well take you down. I suggest that people practice having a partner shoot on them over and over and experiment with ways to stop them. You'll find the faster you're aware - the more options you have.

Like Steve - I've gotten quite a bit out of watching the UFC guys evolve their shooting defenses.

Steve - Jesse's told me that you have some excellent take-down defense techniques. I would like work those with you some day. 

Tom DeFelice